45 replies to this topic

[Lacha]

http://www.twitch.tv...mer/b/320044809

Yay for key modifiers!

not a live stream but from earlier cant change topic.

[Zyll]

The tier'd trait system is pretty much the worst idea that I've seen the dev team present us. Brace yourselves gentlemen/ladies, the cookie-cutter builds are coming.

[Mianhe]

The tier'd trait system is pretty much the worst idea that I've seen the dev team present us. Brace yourselves gentlemen/ladies, the cookie-cutter builds are coming.

This topic is very subjective, while they're cutting down on customization a lot of issues are also solved by having trait tiers, so it comes down to preference in the end.

We already had cookie-cutter choices the second a trait line allows you to grab a really strong major trait no matter what role you're trying to fulfill, and you invest 10 points for it, and never going further into that line.

First major trait slot now allows you to choose one of 6 major traits for the first tier, second tier adds those 6 plus 4 more, and third one lets you choose from the previous 10 and 2 new ones unlocked once you invested those 30 points.

I'm sure ArenaNet has a reason to even mess with the idea of having tiers, after all they've been working on balance since forever ago.

[Mianhe]

Traits have tiers now, so you don't have access to all major traits by investing only 10 points into a line anymore.

It goes like this:

10 points - Access to the first 6 major traits
20 points - Access to the first 6 + 4 more major traits
30 points - Access to the previous 10 + 2 more major traits.

[Orz]

I'll be honest, tiers are a gating system. The beauty of GW1 was that there was no gating. I can live with it, but it isn't ideal IMHO.

[Fatalis]

Hopefully this is just a way of making people go down a specific path in PvE and not restricting them in PvP.

[Orz]

Hopefully this is just a way of making people go down a specific path in PvE and not restricting them in PvP.

Why would you ever make someone go down a specific path? It makes trait builds a gold sink if people consistently have to switch between PvE builds and WvW builds. Again - the beauty of GW1 was the ability to make tons of builds that were quite odd and were a ton of fun to play.

[Zyll]

Traits have tiers now, so you don't have access to all major traits by investing only 10 points into a line anymore.

It goes like this:

10 points - Access to the first 6 major traits
20 points - Access to the first 6 + 4 more major traits
30 points - Access to the previous 10 + 2 more major traits.

So quite literally they're sheeping us into "specializing" into one specific playstyle in order to get the traits that we truly want? This is essentially transitioning from a homemade cookie cutter build to a Pillsbury store bought Doughboy build, it's a downgrade and leaves a funny taste in your mouth.

I don't think I'm going to enjoy playing an Elementalist (or even an Engineer) anymore if this is implemented in the Final build, it completely diminishes any sense of versatility and trait utilization. More than ever are classes either "master of one, fail at the rest" and "Jack of all trades, master of none".

But hey, we will see in t-minus 6 days 15 hours and 47 minutes.

[Perseus]

I don't think its going to be a huge issue like people seem to be thinking. As it was quite a few of us were already specing quite heavily in a few lines. We don't even know what major traits will be included in whichever tier.

[Orz]

It does change a lot of 20 point builds if say it takes 30 to get what you wanted at 20.

[Malchior]

I'll be honest, tiers are a gating system. The beauty of GW1 was that there was no gating. I can live with it, but it isn't ideal IMHO.

My sentiments exactly.

[Zyll]

It does change a lot of 20 point builds if say it takes 30 to get what you wanted at 20.

Exactly, and to be honest, I really didn't see many builds going for those 30 points, I know I sure as heck didn't ever go past 20-25 in a trait line, heck often I only went up to 15 or 10 depending on the traits wanted. This throws all of my builds out the window.

[okuRaku]

Exactly, and to be honest, I really didn't see many builds going for those 30 points, I know I sure as heck didn't ever go past 20-25 in a trait line, heck often I only went up to 15 or 10 depending on the traits wanted. This throws all of my builds out the window.

Don't you think that was a problem with the previous system? The reason why you didn't want to go 30 was because there were traits you felt weren't worth getting, when you could get a more effective one in another line for just 10 points.

Now as others have pointed out, the solution to that problem is not forcing players to use those undesirable traits, but still, they must try to solve one problem at a time. Let's give them a chance to show us what they can do before we completely pin them to the wall. The rest of what they've shown is pretty damn impressive, if you ask me.

[Zyll]

Don't you think that was a problem with the previous system? The reason why you didn't want to go 30 was because there were traits you felt weren't worth getting, when you could get a more effective one in another line for just 10 points.

Now as others have pointed out, the solution to that problem is not forcing players to use those undesirable traits, but still, they must try to solve one problem at a time. Let's give them a chance to show us what they can do before we completely pin them to the wall. The rest of what they've shown is pretty damn impressive, if you ask me.

Oh I'll give them a chance, thats for sure. However, as indicated in the first two sentences, now instead of avoiding those traits that might not please you in your build, you're forced to get them and therefore limit other aspects of your build.

I know you sort of highlight that in your second paragraph, but I wanted to bring the issue forward again.

[Baromega]

Made sure I asked about modifiers as soon as he started the game

As for the skill system changes, I don't really mind it. It really has no effect on sPvP since you've got everything unlocked, and for PvE all it does it present a bigger sense of progression. When you've already unlocked all the skills you plan to use by level 20 (with the exception of the elite), the rest of the leveling experience could easily feel like a chore. In the end though, we won't really know until we try.

[Greight]

The problem with the tier system is the fact that everyone picturing at work with the traits we had in the last BWE. I believe ANet is probably going to do a few more passes at the Major and Minor traits before the game launches. To put it in perspective: the trait system is actually fairly new to the game as it underwent a redesign not too long ago.

[Zyll]

Made sure I asked about modifiers as soon as he started the game

As for the skill system changes, I don't really mind it. It really has no effect on sPvP since you've got everything unlocked, and for PvE all it does it present a bigger sense of progression. When you've already unlocked all the skills you plan to use by level 20 (with the exception of the elite), the rest of the leveling experience could easily feel like a chore. In the end though, we won't really know until we try.

The skill system is absolutely fine, not an issue. Like you said, once in sPvP we have everything, and while in PvE, well Utility skills are a lot less essential. Main issue still revolves around the change in traits.

[Orz]

1-30 PVE is not a good enough test to simply say that Utility skills are a lot less essential (good luck doing Ascalon Catacombs with just your party's weapon choices). You have a weapon if you don't have those utilities and you are pretty worthless in PVE without utilities for a lot of things. Way too much of an over-simplification to state that they are "a lot less essential." They are essential to a well-rounded character, and are needed to finish content in a timely and appropriate manner.

SPvP is not a good example of anything to do with skill choices, or the skill system, as it has nothing to do with the other 90% of the game.

Skill points are now a time sink - those with more time will have more skills. It depletes the ability to build a character how a player wants to play it in a timely manner, and this is one of the worst things - it creates "end game" characters. Making a player pick something they don't want frustrates players to no end.

Utilities are now a gating system. For the majority of players, paths are forced, versus the more numerous builds that were available. This again forces players to do something they not want to, and brings down the number of possible builds in the game substantially.

Remember this is a general discussion thread - be general in your responses and think about the big picture, not just a niche.

[Bridger]

Someone on Guru brought up a good point. We're all assuming that "the best" traits will be the ones gated at 30 points. That may be true, but it may be something else. The problem ANet is trying to solve is not "strong traits," but rather "broken combinations" of traits. If a single trait is too strong it's easy enough to nerf it. If, however, a specific combination of traits is too strong, it might not be so simple as to just nerf the traits involved. Often that could make the traits worthless to take individually.

The answer here might be that the traits that get gated to 30 are the ones that are OP when combined with other traits (that they also stick at tier 3). This allows ANet to avoid nerfing a perfectly good trait (on it's own), but preventing too many of these "strong combining traits" to be taken at the same time.



I'm going to wait until we see it in action (and the finished set of traits) before I freak out about this.

[Zyll]

Interesting, can you provide a link to the thread/post in Guru? I'd like to see some responses to this.